Your Body Is Already Talking. Here’s What It’s Saying | Linda Clemons

Before you ever say a word, you’ve already told the room everything it needs to know. Your posture, your eye contact, the angle of your body, the openness of your chest — all of it is speaking. And most of us have no idea what it’s saying.

Linda Clemons is a world-renowned body language and nonverbal communication expert who has spent more than three decades training Fortune 500 CEOs, sales teams, celebrities, and media leaders to master the silent signals that build trust, command respect, and create connection. Her bestselling book Hush: How to Radiate Power and Confidence Without Saying a Word is a practical guide to the conversation your body is having without you.

We explore why 93% of communication is nonverbal and what that actually means in practice, the four power zones of the body and why keeping them open changes everything from a job interview to a conversation with your teenager, how our biases show up in our bodies before they ever come out of our mouths, the three patterns that derail us in high-stakes moments — frozen, flooding, and flat — and how to move through them, and why the question that changes everything is not what do I want to say but how do I want this person to feel when they leave? A deeply practical, energizing conversation for anyone who wants to show up more powerfully, more warmly, and more authentically in every interaction that matters.

You can find Linda at: Website | LinkedIn | Episode Transcript

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Episode Transcript:

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:00] So here’s something that might change the way you think about nearly every conversation you have today. According to my guest, research says 93% of what you communicate to another person has nothing to do with the words coming out of your mouth. It’s about posture. It’s about your eye contact, the way your arms are positioned, whether your body is open or closed, the direction your feet are pointed, even the microexpressions flickering across your face in fractions of a second. All of it is telling a story. And most of us never once stop to ask what story our body is telling. My guest today, Linda Clemons, has spent more than 30 years as one of the world’s leading experts in body language and nonverbal communication. She’s trained fortune 500 CEOs, elite sales teams, celebrities, leaders across industries to master the silent signals that build trust, create connection, and command a room without ever saying a word. Her best selling book is called hush, and in this conversation, we go deep into what she calls the four power zones of the body and why keeping them open or closed changes everything from a high stakes interview to a conversation with your kid. We talk about how our biases show up in our bodies before they ever reach our mouths. And she tells a story about a manager who unknowingly convicted the wrong person, using nothing but his posture. We get into the three patterns that hijack us in pressure moments frozen, flooding, and flat. And we explore the question that Linda says changes everything. Not what do I want to say, but how do I want this person to feel when they leave my presence? This one is really practical and warm and immediately useful. So excited to share this conversation with you. I’m Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.

Jonathan Fields: [00:01:45] I’m deeply fascinated by how we show up, by how we communicate, by how we don’t communicate. And, and, and even more so by how we transmit things to each other without ever actually thinking that we’re doing that. You share that before we even open our mouths. Our bodies are already telling a story about us when we walk into a room or into a conversation. Take me into this idea more.

Linda Clemons: [00:02:18] Absolutely. So first of all, Jonathan, again, thank you for having me on your on your show. What’s so important? If we think about this, our nonverbal communication is primitive. It existed before we were able to speak a word. And so just imagine it’s the thing that protects you that’s a part of your limbic system. When from 2000 or more years when you would meet someone, the first thing you would do, you would scan their body, you would scan the body to to determine if they are a friend or a foe. If you’re or perhaps a feast, you know what I’m saying. Or and that’s what we do. But But the body is speaking before you even say a word. So, for example, you and I could communicate if someone walks in the room and perhaps someone that looks a little odd or strange or, or someone we least expect, and we may look at each other and do an eyebrow flash like, hmm, I wonder who that is without saying a word. So again, even when you were a little baby, you couldn’t form words. You made sounds and gestures. So that’s how important our non-verbal is. And I have one of my quotes that I love. It’s by Emerson and it goes like this. I cannot hear what you are saying because who you are being is getting in the way. Wow. I cannot hear what you’re saying because who you’re being, your actions and you’ve heard the phrase action speaks louder than words. And if my late granny was alive, she’d say, baby, I hear you talking. But I don’t see you walking. So it is so important. There’s a conversation that just standing there, just looking around, whether we say anything or not that’s speaking louder than your words.

Jonathan Fields: [00:04:07] Yeah. I mean, that makes so much sense. And it’s it’s as you were describing that I was also wondering, well, where does this come from? But you kind of spoke to that. And I guess there’s probably no real way for us to answer where does this come from? But it would make sense that there’s a survival mechanism at play here. Like we needed to be able to actually read, you know, if we if we saw somebody coming and it was 100 yards away or a group of people coming and we couldn’t actually communicate with them, maybe we didn’t share a language, but there was probably there was a reason for us to understand as you were sharing earlier, friend or foe, you know, so there’s a survival mechanism that that I would imagine has given us this curiosity and ability to start to try and figure out what is being communicated long before words come out of somebody’s mouth.

Linda Clemons: [00:04:53] Absolutely. And just think about couples who have been together for a while. They they can be in sync with each other without saying a word. A wife can know if something’s going on with her husband. Uh, a husband can know what’s going on with the wife. The mother can just scan her children and know if something is happening. So it’s so important that we stay in tune to this, because if you are a leader, if you’re a parent, a friend, or you’re working with a coworker or someone that you want to communicate better with, be prepared to be observant. When I say observant, one of the keys that I love is being 100% present in their presence. So you could see those facial muscles, those 43 facial muscles that react. You could see if I said something to perhaps offend you and then you jerk back. Thus you were taken aback. All of these things without you saying a word or sending signals. And it allows us to know if we are building rapport, if we are attracting people. Or you could become a people magnet magnet, or if you are wow repelling people because of your behavior and your nonverbal. If your power zones are not open. And we’ll talk about that a little bit later. All of this makes a difference. And see the smile is the universal language.

Jonathan Fields: [00:06:27] I think a lot of us will probably say, okay, I could see how this would really benefit our to both be able to lead with nonverbal language in a way where we want to communicate something that is in some way beneficial to us or to others. But you also mentioned something else, which I’m really curious about, which is the way that we we step into an interaction nonverbally with our body, with our movement, with our energy can also hurt us like there can. There can be a downside. What are some of the ways that you see the risks, the hazards, the harms that you see potentially being caused by not understanding how this mechanism works and maybe stepping in into a conversation in a way where we’re, we’re literally creating a dynamic that we really wish we weren’t.

Linda Clemons: [00:07:11] Well, let me give you a good example. I never forget I was working with a company and working with their leaders on the. I do a workshop titled The Silent Language of Leaders, and working with the managers and the leaders and how they manage, promote, review and be able to develop their employees. Well, there was a situation where there was discrepancy going on in the office about a particular issue, and the manager brought in the two individuals. Now he did it individually, but this was now the first individual, by the way, full transparency was someone he had recommended for the job to someone he fully sponsored. So watch this. When this particular individual came in, he did this. Jonathan did this. Okay. Tell me what was going on. I want you all to look at my hands, okay? Tell me what was going on. I want you to watch my upper carriage. Tell me what’s going on. His upper carriage was like pulling. I’m trying to pull for you. I’m leaning in for you. Tell me the truth. I’m there for you. So he was totally open. And by the way, the young man just sat there. Well, here’s what happened. Etcetera, etcetera. No emotion, just real steel. But yet at the same time, this guy was pulling for him. So tell me what happened. You didn’t do this. He wanted him to be innocent. The second guy that was involved, that walked in, the manager inherited him, inherited him from another team, and he really didn’t want him. He really didn’t. He just got, you know, it wasn’t someone that he had an opportunity to choose. The guy just transferred to that team. Someone put it there, put him there, and guess what? This is how the manager was approaching him. Watch. Even though the physical door was open to the office, he closed the door to his heart.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:19] So for those who are just listening also, by the way, you’re kind of leaning back now with your arms crossed over your chest. Yeah.

Linda Clemons: [00:09:26] Yes, yes. So leaning back, arms crossed. Listen up. Arms crossed. And he extended one arm out and says, okay. But if for those that are listening, I am doing my okay with my hand, but but the back of my hand is swinging forward and one arm still folded. Okay. So I’m just going to use a name to protect the innocent and the guilty. Okay, Harry, give me your version. Pam wasn’t exposed, arm still half folded. Give me your version. And he folded his arm back. So the poor guy is thinking, wow, he’s already accused me as being guilty and I haven’t even said a word. He and he and he did this based on the manager’s body language because he wasn’t open. We don’t realize that the moment that we cast judgment in our mind, it shows up in the matter.

Jonathan Fields: [00:10:24] So we’re so we can walk into an interaction with some biases, predisposed to a point of view, or about an idea about a situation, a person, a group of people. And we think that we’re kind of showing up fairly neutral. Like, I haven’t opened my mouth. I haven’t said anything yet, but what you’re saying is, without us even realizing it, we’re walking into that interaction physically and energetically, in a way that is going to probably both reveal what our bias is in in a good or a bad way, and also change the nature of what’s about to unfold potentially in a in a harmful way.

Linda Clemons: [00:11:04] Absolutely. And, and I’m sitting here in the office observing both scenarios. And the second guy, you know what? He came in, he was sitting at the edge of the seat. It’s called seat ready. You know where you’re excited and you’re trying to plead your innocence and your side of the story. But the moment that he saw the manager’s posture and body language, his shoulders, which were straight up, became sunken in because he gave up at that moment. He gave up. He gave up what? You didn’t want me in the first place. So look at the stories that are created, created internally without us even saying a word. That’s how powerful you are. You can have someone walk into the office like, whoa, look at this fella. Look at this woman. Look at this guy, look at this girl. She walks or he walks like they own the place. Your posture, the way you walk, the way you hold your shoulders, your head is at level head. Or is it sunken down? All makes a difference. And man, that conversation. And I pull that manager to the side and said, I can tell you which one that you were for it. And by the way, the guy that he sponsored was the one that was guilty. Mhm. But his biases and this is so important when you have a bias, there’s something called raz RAS reticular Activated system. Your brain can be lazy sometimes, so whatever you think, the brain is going to find evidence to validate it. So if you’re thinking, well, look at that young lady, look at that. Oh, the way they’re dressed, they’ll never work and they could be a genius. And then next thing you know, your brain says, well, look at their shoes. Well, look at this. Look at what they’re eating, the way they handle utensils. Your brain will validate whatever you’re seeking. Be careful what you think about because it could come about.

Jonathan Fields: [00:13:18] Yeah. And what you’re saying is it also it’s going to show up in your body potentially even before it ever comes out of your mouth. Now, you just described a work scenario, which I think probably so many of us have had some version of that, and maybe even been on the side of the manager without realizing what we were doing, like we were the ones who were actually showing up in a way where in hindsight we’re like, oh, wow, that actually wasn’t okay, but this is going to show up in our relationships every day also, isn’t it? This is going to show up in our. If you’re a parent, it’s probably going to show up in your relationship with your. A co-parent or a kid or a neighbor or a friend. So this isn’t just about work. This is about literally every interaction we have with people who are close and not so close with us.

Linda Clemons: [00:13:59] Absolutely. And you know, one of the things that I encourage all of you to think about, how do you want people to leave once they’re in your presence? How do you want them to leave? Do you want them to leave better or bitter? Do you want them to leave transformed or elevated? You could do that simply with your words, your tone, and how you show up, how you open the door to your heart. And when I say power zones, the heart area is a major power zone. Are you always folded arms? And some of you probably thinking, well, that’s who I am. Everybody that knows me knows that I fold my arms. But what if I don’t know you? What if I don’t know your baseline? How do I know that you’re Norm? So having that awareness is critical. And one of the things that I always say to myself, you know, when I meet someone or someone that I encounter, that the moment they’re in my presence, how do I want? How do I want them to leave my presence? Mm. It’s so important. Do I want them to feel like, man, I could conquer the world, or I could make it another day, or I have something to live for. Or I do have possibility. How do you want them to leave? And that’s one of the keys of being able to attract and build rapport. By the way, you give off the energy.

Jonathan Fields: [00:15:37] I want to drop into both the power zones and some other sort of tools that you offer. But before we get there, I’m also curious about something. We just talked a bit about how our own presuppositions or biases can show up in our nonverbal communication, and how we eventually it’s going to show up in our language also. But even the way that we physically show up in an interaction, um, what about our emotional states? You know, because we can come into an interaction or a room energized, calm, at peace, freaked out, stressed, anxious, depressed. Um, do these also show up in a similar way in our physicality when we’re interacting with somebody in a way that affects the way that we’re perceived or that we might want to have an impact on others.

Linda Clemons: [00:16:27] Absolutely. So there is a book by a friend of mine, Scott McCain. All business is show business. So the way you show up, you only get that 4 to 7 seconds, maybe eight. I’ll give you a bonus one to make that good first impression. Nobody talks to you about what happens the remaining 20 minutes, because they’re still assessing you to see if you’re the real deal. Whatever is on the mind shows up in the matter. So if you’re distracted, let me ask you this question here. For those that are listening, how would you feel? And I’m not putting it in the universe, but just say you or someone you love has to have emergency surgery and the surgeon comes in or are they talking to you? Doesn’t have to be emergency. Let’s just say the doctor comes in who’s going to operate and he introduces himself, hey, I’m Doctor Clements and the nurses there, and I’m going to tell you here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to, uh okay. Hold on. Do we start with anesthesia first or do I do this? It doesn’t matter how many degrees are on the wall.

Linda Clemons: [00:17:37] Or if he says to you, you know what, give me a minute. I’ve got a lot going on. My wife left me, the dog bit me, and I found out the cat is having an affair. With all that on their mind, do you want them operating on you? Even though they’ve got all the awards, the degrees on the wall. So the mind can only think of one given thought at any given time. And the thing that you think of the longest becomes the strongest. So if you are going in with baggage, if you are going in with garbage, it’ll begin to leak, it’ll begin to smell. And a non verbal we call it leakage where those other emotions are you okay? Are you okay? I mean are you okay? Jonathan, you’re you look like a little uncomfortable. People begin to notice that because brains speak to other brains, the signals are there and it’s displayed in your non-verbal. So the moment that you think about it and that amygdala or the neocortex are the midbrain or the prefrontal cortex. It’s going to show up in your body.

Jonathan Fields: [00:18:45] And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. And that probably we think we’re hiding. But what you’re suggesting is we’re not that like if it’s it’s probably showing up in, in 100 different ways in these tiny little physical cells in our body that other people are picking up. And whether we ever said a word about what was going on, whether we said like, we’re stressed, we’re anxious, whatever it is you’re saying, you’re suggesting that we actually are speaking that, but we think that we’re not. And then it creates this silent tension because people are picking up on that. Um, and that’s going to create friction.

Linda Clemons: [00:19:23] Absolutely, absolutely. And it makes them uneasy. And so for those that are in sales, when that comes across the table, let’s say it’s the end of the month and you’ve got to be quota, right?

Jonathan Fields: [00:19:38] So you’re freaked out because you’re like, I gotta push, push, push, push, push. I have a number to hit. Yeah.

Linda Clemons: [00:19:42] Yes. They feel that. And then all of a sudden, emotions are contagious. And now your client, your customer is acting the way you’re acting. They become a mirror of you. So you have to. And that’s part of emotional intelligence is being self-aware of your own emotions so that you can manage them.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:06] So this all makes a lot of sense to me. You know, in this context also, you, you talk about us having certain patterns that we tend to default to as well. And you bring up three from what I recall. It’s frozen flooding and flat, which become almost like these default states. Yes. And they can really interfere. These again, these are their physical patterns. They show up in our bodies, um, in ways that affect both us and also people that we’re interacting with. Um, Walk me through these three different patterns.

Linda Clemons: [00:20:37] Thank you. So that’s in my book, the forthcoming book hush. And for example, let’s talk about the frozen stage where you are just simply totally paralyzed in every situation where if something happens and you can’t react or you lose your train of thought and you’re just there frozen and, and your boss is looking at you, everyone’s looking like what? Say something, say something. What’s the matter? What’s the matter with you? Then the other flooding. When all of a sudden, Jonathan, everything. If it’s going to happen, it’s happening today. Everything is happening. And then all of a sudden the floodgates of emotions are starting to pour out. And it’s very challenging. It happens to men not as often as it happens to women because of all the things that they’re multitasking and trying to do and trying, and they’re emotionally attached to projects and things. So then when you begin to flood, is that you could come across as it could come across now is if you’re having an emotional meltdown. So for example, let’s say you’re doing your big, the pitch of your life, you’re doing a proposal, you’re doing a pitch, and the stakeholders are in front of you and you’ve worked on this for months. And then all of a sudden someone says, you know, we tried this before, but we actually lost money in the third quarter with that.

Linda Clemons: [00:22:09] It didn’t work. If you are emotionally attached to that, it’s like the umbilical cord. Then you’re going to take that feedback as a personal attack attack. And then all of a sudden, emotions start flooding from the eyes darting back and forth from the the exhaling, The the the flavor, the the, the movement of the hands just going everything. It’s like high wired and then flat is almost like you flat line. It’s like, what does it matter? You become more numb. So it’s so important to realize where you are emotionally, why you’re feeling that way. What would be the outcome if it’s displayed? So for example, how would this impact my conversation with you, my mother, my coworker, my children, my team, my boss, my biggest client, the late actor Yul Brynner, was asked, you know, how is it over a thousand performances? Every one you give 100% the same thing over and over and over again because someone in that audience, he said it will be their first time experiencing me the production, so I can’t afford to be off. Yes, we are human. Absolutely. But the discipline part of when you’re frozen, when you are flooded and when you are flat, the discipline part is knowing how to pivot, pivot and pivot quickly.

Jonathan Fields: [00:24:00] How do we navigate when this happens? Because whether it’s on a big move or on a big stage or in a meeting, or whether you’re just you’re having a conversation with your kid where you really want it to land, you know, how do we deal with it when one of these three patterns shows up?

Linda Clemons: [00:24:17] Think about this if you are talking to your child. Let’s first of all look at the level of where you’re talking. Are you talking standing up as the authority? Are you talking? Sitting down. Meeting them where they’re at. That getting that connection. Are you opening up with a story that, uh, of everything about what they did wrong, or are you opening it up? Begin to open up about what it is that you appreciate about Billy, what you appreciate about little Linda and what you mean to them. Because I’ve gotta open the mind. I gotta open the body. Because if the child is in the amygdala, they’re already fearful. They’re not, you know, they’re in the protective mode. I’ve got to melt that ice and then challenge them on the action that they did and hear their feedback and get their thoughts. And by the way, be careful of using your 43 facial muscles To make those expressions that come across as judgment. Because the moment they see the judgment in your eyes, they’ll go into shame, guilt, and therefore they’ll close down. So think about how do you want the meeting, the interaction to end? From a little child to a little child to a spouse, a partner, a coworker, a team member. As Covey would say, begin with the end in mind.

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:03] Yeah. So this is a repeated theme in our conversation. It’s like, really think even before you’re in there. Like, what do you want out of this? Like, how do you want this to end? And that’s going to really influence how you step into it, both physically and also what language might come out of your mouth. Let’s talk about a bit more about specific tools and actually maybe a good setup for that you referenced earlier in a conversation. Um, um, these I think you call them power zones.

Linda Clemons: [00:26:33] Yeah. Let’s talk about.

Jonathan Fields: [00:26:34] That. Yeah.

Linda Clemons: [00:26:35] So when we talk about the power zones, let’s one of you for those that are listening, if you just touch that dimple right where the throat area is, it’s called the suprasternal notch. That’s the medical scientific term for it. Lots of times women have a tendency when they feel threatened, it’s a cure. And Princess Di did it a lot later in her latter years of her marriage. They have a tendency to stroke the suprasternal notch and you’re just stroking it. So, for example, if I work at a case and I’ve set out to Mrs. Johnson’s home and I say, Mrs. Johnson, they sent me out to talk with you and just for you to ask a few questions regarding the whereabouts of your son and your daughter on February the 14th, if she’s protecting her son and she does not want to reveal the information, even though she may say something like this, I don’t know. I’ve not seen my son in months. If she starts stroking the suprasternal notch, that nonverbal gives me the cue. She’s doing a self-touch gesture, which is called pacifying gestures, trying to calm herself, to soothe her nerves to the women out there. How many times do you do that in a meeting? If the meeting is getting a little heated or something’s going on, or you feel challenged. You have a tendency to do that. Men may get hot around the collar and where the blood vessels begin to enlarge, and they’ll pull at the neckline.

Linda Clemons: [00:28:14] But be aware of that because that’s a power zone. If you heard a loud noise overhead, you’ll automatically protect that area. Go woo! And by the way, for those that are listed. I dipped my head in like a little turtle. Oh, okay. You protected the throat, so that’s a power zone. The other power zone we spoke of earlier is the heart. Think about someone who’s had their heart broken. And let’s say I introduce a friend to someone because she’s been, you know, out of a relationship for a long time. And we all think it’s time you get out and start dating. So I introduced her to a friend. She’s liking the guy, but all of a sudden he started to do things that reminded her of her ex. And guess what? She immediately did. She folded her arms. Now, in that scenario, subconsciously, she was protecting her heart. Mm. Her heart. That’s a power zone. So when you welcome someone, you don’t welcome it into your home with your arms folded. The arms are widespread, pores exposed, exposed, and the heart is exposed. Your power zone is so critical. The heart, the throat, the other power zone is the belly button. The navel. It’s your first connection to another human being through the umbilical cord.

Linda Clemons: [00:29:49] Think about when you’re talking to someone face to face, heart to heart, belly button to belly button. And let’s say you’re at a at a group of people, you’re networking and you’re in that little circle. You could always tell what someone is ready to leave because they cut the cord and they’ll begin to turn away. So think about when you’re having that conversation and when you’re done with it. Some of you may be guilty. Like, I don’t want to hear it anymore. You will subconsciously begin to turn away. Your feet are pointed towards the door, and by the way, feet don’t lie. They’re pointed in the direction we want to go, you know. So you automatically want to get out of that even though your face may be face forward, your heart kind of in a angle now, but that belly button begins to turn and you’re cutting the connection. Be aware of that because you don’t have to say a word. If someone says something to you, you don’t want to hear it. You begin to turn your body. That’s another form of dismissal. So the power zones, the throat area, the suprasternal notch, where that little dip is the heart, the belly button. And there’s another area and that could be for another show. It’s the reproductive area. And that could be for another saucy show.

Jonathan Fields: [00:31:12] So so we got the we’ve got these four power zones. Then, um, you used the word and you said be aware of sort of like how you’re positioning them in an interaction. Which brings up a bigger question about about this. The things that we’re talking about are most of us actually even aware that we’re doing any of these things? Or is this just it happens kind of like automatically, subconsciously.

Linda Clemons: [00:31:39] It’s it happens. It’s a habit. It’s ingrained into you. So when you wake up in the morning, you don’t have to think, how do I get up out of bed? How do I brush my teeth? It’s automatic and those habits are automatic. It becomes a part of your fabric and who you are. The key for you is to ask yourself and check the temperature. How is this having an affect? Other people that are around me. I just noticed that every time I go and try to join a group, then they’re ready to leave. All of a sudden, oh, I gotta go. I just noticed that when I, uh, you know, contribute to conversations. People ignore me. You have to be aware of what you’re giving off so that you can correct it. And a good way to do it is ask trusted friends. It goes like this. Look I noticed. Look, every time you guys get together for lunch. And when I come to join you, it seems like everybody wants to leave. Why is that? Well, Linda, you’re negative Nelly, or you’re this or. Every time you come in, you’re always pointing out. Are you looking up somebody up and down as if you are checking them over, trying to approve them or not. And your whole being is condescending. No I’m not. I did. So you don’t realize it’s the reason why it’s so hard for us to see the picture if we’re stuck in the frame. And sometimes it takes someone else to point out those things that you take for granted. I had a friend that always that what they would talk, they would go and, uh, I mean, we didn’t know what that was. And it was a habit that I’d come to find out. What are you doing? We had to ask, what are you doing? What do you mean, what am I doing? The noise that you’re making. They grew up with their grandpa doing that, and they picked it up for whatever reason, but they weren’t aware of it. But it was annoying to other people until someone said, look, what are you doing? What is this?

Jonathan Fields: [00:33:45] Yeah. I mean, so often it makes sense. We are not, especially if it’s been a part of us for decades. We just we don’t know. These are our the tells in certain situations. I remember, um, not too long ago being at a small gathering and I’m, I’m an introverted person. I’m a quieter person. I move into social situations cautiously. Um, and I found myself having a conversation with somebody new. And I noticed very quickly that he positioned himself at an angle to me and it was uncomfortable for me. He wasn’t looking around or sort of scanning the room for an exit or another person to talk to.

Linda Clemons: [00:34:22] But his body was turned in.

Jonathan Fields: [00:34:24] And his body was like just very slightly turned away from me. And he was kind of gazing past me. So it was like, I’m going to run an experiment here. So I kind of subtly shifted over back into his gaze. So I was facing him navel to navel five within five seconds. He slightly rotates again, literally over the course of 15 minutes. We did a full 360 together and I was I’m saying to myself, and he wasn’t disengaged. Like we were having a conversation. He wasn’t looking. He didn’t seem to be obviously looking for an exit or looking over his shoulder or seeking somebody else. Um, and I was just so fascinating. I was like, what’s going on here? Like, is this somebody who’s just actually very socially uncomfortable and, and maybe is neurodivergent in a way where it’s very just uncomfortable Being face to face with somebody or looking them in the eye. Is there some other social thing, or am I am I in some way making him uncomfortable? And I was never able to actually piece it together, but I wasn’t offended. But I was curious.

Linda Clemons: [00:35:28] Well, let me ask you this. With you being an introvert, a self-proclaimed introvert.

Jonathan Fields: [00:35:32] Yeah.

Linda Clemons: [00:35:33] And you know that it is an extroverts when they invade the proxemics, the personal space of an introvert, you know, without permission or without the. Right. Yeah. It could make them uncomfortable. So just with the moment that you spent with him, if you were to guess or assess, would you say that that individual, by the way they were turning and moving, if they were an introvert.

Jonathan Fields: [00:35:59] I would imagine so. And because that tends to be my orientation, I tend to be really sensitive to that too, and give people their space. So I wasn’t sort of like, like closing in on his personal space. I tend to be pretty good with that, but maybe it was just that. And maybe he was just very, very socially uncomfortable, um, in a way where he just kind of kept not wanting to connect too much because it just didn’t feel good to him and which I, which I honor. So like I said, it was more, it became more of a curiosity to me. I was like, oh, this is just kind of fascinating. I’m curious about what’s going on.

Linda Clemons: [00:36:35] How did it make you feel initially?

Jonathan Fields: [00:36:38] Oh, not comfortable. Like not like, yeah. It made me feel like I was being sort of like pushed away or dismissed until I gave it a beat and said, maybe that’s not actually what’s really happening here. But but my, my sense is a lot of people wouldn’t have given it that beat. They would have just been like, oh, this person’s turning their body away from me. You know, they’re not interested in me.

Linda Clemons: [00:37:01] And if they here’s another thing. If they start turning the body away and the shoulders begin to roll in as if they’re about to go into the fetal position, it could also be, uh, issues of feeling insecure. See, for every emotion there’s emotion. And there’s a story. For every emotion, there’s an emotion that goes with it, a body language movement, and there’s a story attached to it. So the story, we may perceive it as one way, but the body was telling us by turning away that I am not ready to be fully connected. Don’t take it personal. I am not ready for anyone to be in my space. And yes, we have to honor that. Now, here’s the thing you probably didn’t have the opportunity to find out. Is that the norm, his norm or the exception?

Jonathan Fields: [00:37:59] Yeah. No. You’re right.

Linda Clemons: [00:38:00] The life of the party. The next 20 minutes. Wow. It could have been me, right? Right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:38:05] Yeah. And what’s so interesting too, right? Because let’s say you’re that that person. And maybe this is Something that has actually become a part of you through past trauma. Right. You also you, there’s a safety. You don’t feel safe in certain social situations, regardless of who the other people are. You’re just, you’re still living with a certain amount of trauma in your system and maybe that’s affecting you. So you show up at a party every time somebody approaches you to just get to know you or say hi. Um, because you have this ingrained trauma response that shows up in a physical turning away, you turn away, the other person feels rejected, they walk away, and that becomes this repeated pattern. And you’re probably wondering, why do people keep rejecting me? Having no idea this is even going on? I mean, do you see things like that happening in your work?

Linda Clemons: [00:38:56] It happens a lot. Uh, and then again, remember what you said. So we said for every emotion there’s emotion. And like you said, what I said and I mentioned there’s a story, there’s a story attached to it. So Oprah Winfrey and Whoopi Goldberg shared a story when the musical The Color Purple came out, and for some reason prior to that, they did not speak to each other. They were upset with each other when they got together to do this big interview for the for the musical The Color Purple, and to do the interview. They didn’t know why they were angry with each other. They were just angry. They didn’t even know the story. So what upset is what happens if we create a narrative, but we don’t know the story? And that’s ask ask acronym. Ask, seek and knock and knock is asking for permission to open the door to continue to have additional dialogue and conversation. Ask, you know, ask questions that allow you to peel the onion, seek to understand and to knock on the door, to be able to come in, to step into their heart, their mind, and their space.

Jonathan Fields: [00:40:21] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I would imagine also, you know, if you ask and, and the response is either physically, non-verbally or verbally, I’m not there, then we have to respect that too.

Linda Clemons: [00:40:36] We have to honor that. Yeah, we have to. And we honor that with grace. We bless and release it. Yeah. We do not take remnants and apply it to us. Is it me? No. We meet people where they’re at. We’re human.

Jonathan Fields: [00:40:55] And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. So somebody is joining us for this conversation. This all makes sense. And and I think themselves, you know, okay, so I get the way that I show up physically in an interaction, in a room, in a meeting is going to make a real difference. And they’re asking themselves a question. You know, I’ve got I’ve got this big presentation next week or, you know, like an interview that I’m going on next week. How can I show up in this interaction that’s coming up in a way where I feel like I step in, I’m received beautifully. I have a certain sense of confidence and command of the room. Well, what would you what should we be thinking about in that scenario?

Linda Clemons: [00:41:41] So I’m going to give you the three C’s of reading nonverbal communication. And I may give you a bonus C, but the three C’s. First of all, know your baseline, your norm. How do you feel when you’re feeling great? What is that? What does that look like? What does that feel like? What does that sound like when you are feeling like on top of the world? What does it look like and sound like when you’re feeling that you’re at the pit of, you know, what, what does that look like so that you could be able to identify it. What you’re able to identify it, that you name it. Okay. You call it whatever name you want so that you can tame it. What you name it and tame it. You could reframe it and you could do it in an instance. So what reading body language, you want to know a person’s baseline and especially you need to know yours. The first C is reading nonverbals and clusters. So for example, if you are in the interview and you’re feeling just a little a little frustrated at the moment, a couple of things are going to happen that if I was the interviewer, that validates that for me. You may sit back and sigh in exasperation. Yeah, well, my last job. Okay, that’s the second signal.

Linda Clemons: [00:43:00] So clusters are looking for more than one movement. Then all of a sudden I ask you another question that you didn’t like, a question that you didn’t like and what you did was turn away. You. You crossed your leg and you turned in that angle. Wow. So this validates for me, okay, this person is not really into it. You know, they may not be the candidate I want, but it’s key to watch for the clusters if the interviewer as well. Because if they’re leaning in and hanging on every word and then all of a sudden they are taken aback, take the pen and just lay it down on the table. Push the paper, the paper forward. The interview may be over. Smack their hand on the table. Slap their hand on the table. The interview may be over. So watching for those clusters more than one movement. The second C very important. Congruity. It is critical when you go that interview that your words, your tone and your You’re nonverbal. So words, tonality and nonverbal the body language. Here’s a soundbite for you. If all three don’t agree that there is a disconnect in the message between you and me, I can’t fold my arms and says, you know I really love you. Let’s get therapy. No. The arms folded. The tone was not right.

Linda Clemons: [00:44:27] So if all three. The words, the tone and the nonverbal don’t agree, there’s a disconnect in the message. And the third C is context. And context is this. Let’s say you’re going to that interview and the temperature that day is 90 degrees, 90°F. I mean, it’s hot, humid, all get out. And you walk into the interview in full winter gear. I don’t know your parka, your down coat, a fur coat, beard, real fur, faux fur, whatever. It’s winter gear. The interviewer can’t even think straight. They’re going, what’s up with this person? Because it’s out of context. You’re. If your behavior. All of a sudden, because someone asks you a question and all of a sudden you lose it, it’s out of context. So be aware of those three C’s. And the bonus C is culture. When in Rome, do as the Romans do you want to fit in? You really don’t want to stand out. You could go to jail by doing wrong movements and gestures and and phrases, if you will. Even the wrong body language. The sign that we make in the United States for a. Okay, this sign for those that are looking at me and those that are listening, you know, the a okay sign is quite obscene in different parts of the world. So having that awareness is so critical.

Jonathan Fields: [00:46:01] Yeah, that makes so much sense as you’re describing this, I’m kind of nodding along on the one hand, but then there’s another voice that’s popping up in me. And I’m guessing you’ve heard this before, which is, is there a line that we cross when we think about, okay, so now I, I know all these different things to look for. I have a series of techniques, I know ways to sort of shape my physicality and to look for the physicality of others to try and kind of like show up or manipulate the way that I’m showing up. And I’m not using manipulating with a moral judgment there, but just change the way that I’m showing up in a way where I’m checking as many boxes as I possibly can so that we have the positive outcome that we talked about wanting early in a conversation. Is there a risk of crossing a line at some point where I’m moving from? Actually, I’m showing up in a way which is no longer which is in service of the other, or the conversation or the outcome more than it’s in service of me showing up authentically anymore.

Linda Clemons: [00:47:07] So are you asking me? The phrase, I think it was coined by Mary Kay Ash if I showed up faking it til I make it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:47:18] Yeah. Like, are we, is there, is there a risk of giving up so much of ourselves in the name of creating a particular dynamic or outcome that we kind of feel like we’re losing ourselves in the mix? And even though we may get the outcome that we thought we wanted, we feel like we’re kind of hollowing ourselves out inside.

Linda Clemons: [00:47:38] Let’s talk about this. There is a there is a quote that was coined by the late Mary Kay Ash, founder of Mary Kay. And the quote was fake it til you make it. So Linda Clemens has a quote. I have a quote for you. The fake will fade because the true essence of who you are is going to begin to surface. So I want to give you an acronym. Think of tap dancing, tapping on the table, T as and Tom. A as in Apple, P as in Paul. And we’re talking about your best self because, you know, just like there are many faces of Eve and many faces of Adam there. I want you to show up. We’re talking about your best self. So I want you to think about this acronym when you are your truthful best self. That’s the T truthful. You will show up in your authentic best self. So if you’ve got the truth, you’re authentic. Then it shows up in the proof. And the proof is your non-verbal. See, when you come across desperate, if you will, by trying to pour everything. Get somebody to like me trying to do this. Then lose a breath as you’re looking at them taking their temperature. Or are they liking me that you’re going up for air again? That makes people uneasy, if you will, because there are other narratives that are going on, and there are other stories that are taking place as to why you’re showing up that way.

Linda Clemons: [00:49:09] People who are confident and in control know who they are. They know the value that they bring, and they stand on that. They’re sure about that. When they share their expertise, they share it in stories, examples of the outcome. And they know if you are just sharing information to get validation. And by the way, facial validation, what if you have an interviewer that does not give you that validation? When I say validation, when someone says something, the eyebrows go, ooh, okay, huh? And the sounds and the mouth and the twitching of the lip and the eyes, just to let someone know that you’re with them, if you will. Some people may not be that way. They may be very stoic. They may be of the poker face, as they call it. And then you may be a kinesthetic communicator dominated kinesthetic, and you’re looking for that emotional connection. And you could take it personal if you’re not getting it. If the individual perhaps is analytical now you’re falling apart. He or she doesn’t like me. So tap, tap, tap. When you are your truthful, positive self, a your authentic positive self, P will show up in the proof and that said in your body.

Jonathan Fields: [00:50:37] And those are pretty good words for living. I think in general to feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation. So in this container Good Life Project., if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up?

Linda Clemons: [00:50:51] Oh. What comes up for me? Yea, I think of, uh, Erma Bombeck, if you will. The late Erma Bombeck, as she says that would I and I’m paraphrasing again, that would I leave this earth and stand before my maker. I want to stand empty. Empty because I used everything that I’ve got. I left everything on earth so that way I could continue to live on. Now that’s the limbic part of it. So what I hear that I just want to be able to touch people in a way that their lives are better, better, so that they can spread that joy and live that good life as well.

Jonathan Fields: [00:51:43] Mhm. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, be sure to tune in next week for our conversation with Julia Minson about how to disagree better so you can have less drama and more impact in your life, your work and your community. And be sure to follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts so you don’t miss any upcoming episodes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young. Kris Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven’t already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you’re still here. Do me a personal favor. A seven-second favor and share it with just one person. If you want to share it with more, hey, that’s awesome, but just one person even then, invite them to talk with you about what you’ve both discovered to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that’s how we all come alive together. Until next time. I’m Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

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